I don’t understand how, when, or why selfishness became the “Christian” position.

I opened up my facebook on October 14th and this is what one woman had to say:
“I don’t understand how, when, or why selfishness became the “Christian” position.”

She continued:

“I’m just finding very frustrating that in this whole 99% debate, the “Christian” voices all seem to be saying, “I work hard for my money, therefore it’s mine, and I don’t wanna share, and if the 1% are richer than you, it’s just because they worked harder, so they deserve it more.” It’s just so opposite the teachings of Jesus, and so opposite of how I feel about the world, as a Christian. It makes me sad. Jesus told his followers to pay their taxes, and the only time he ever got really pissed off was at people profiting off of religion. ”

My response:
” I don’t think it’s greed necessarily. Saying that I work for my money and don’t want to pay MORE taxes than I already do is not greedy. And assuming the Christians out there expressing this don’t give to charity is wrong. We actually are struggling, have sought some help. We’ve not gotten help from government programs like we have from who? Christians. I don’t think all the the 99% people are arguing the same things. I think some would actually be able to sit with about the same signs as the tea party people. It depends on who you talk to. I was just talking to someone yesterday who is not a 99%er, and may not be part of the teaparty, but she realized we’re all looking to the wrong solutions. The Church SHOULD be providing more and is NOT. That’s the problem, the government cannot solve it, corporations cannot solve it. I fear for MORE taxes affecting charitable giving.”

I continue:
And I knew this was going to happen a few years back. I began to hear the attacks on the rich from the Obama campaign, and I knew there was going to be a fight between poor and rich that didn’t exist in the way it does today. I find that many of the things that weren’t a big divider before are becoming so now. It’s all part of the plan, I think (whatever that plan is I don’t know…but I think it is part of it). Not that I think there’s a big “left wing conspiracy” but that yes, in the hopes of creating a bit of chaos before an election, we must have some class division. The bible itself mentions in proverbs (I think, I’ll have to look it up) you no work, you no eat. (very loose and free translation, forgive me). Now, I’m not assuming the 99%er crowd doesn’t work. Just that the concept that getting to have some prosperity from hard work is NOT a sin.”

Another facebooker responded:
“Christ said in Luke “Blessed are the poor for yours is the kingdom of heaven” and tells the rich young ruler to give away everything he has to the poor before he can follow him. Christ told everytone to pay their taxes, in a time when a tax collector could take every penny you had if he wanted to. Christ never said pay your taxes until you feel like you’ve paid enough, he said look Caesars head is on this coin, give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. So take your dollars, and give to Washington what is Washington’s. Aren’t you blessed to live in a day and age when there are laws that keep a tax collector from walking into your home and taking every penny you have? Praise be to God! And actually, A LOT of the 99%ers leave the protest to go to work, one of the faces of Occupy Wall Street is a public school teacher who is there all evening, sleeps there 3 or 4 nights a week and has not missed a day of work since this started. Most people I know here at Occupy Portland do work and they are not there 24 hours a day. And the ONLY person I know at occupy Philly who does not have a job outside the home is JA (the original poster) and I would argue that to say see doesn’t work is insulting to billions of christian women who have devoted themselves to raising children in a home fo Faith for the last 2 millenia!”

“Yes, it’s true Erin, it was because the rich young ruler wouldn’t admit he was a sinner and imperfect. He knew the man’s heart. IT was not about being rich or poor. The society he was living in was much different than our representative form of government. And because we DON’T have to pay those taxes yet, we are free to express frustration with people trying to get more taxes to redistribute the money people have worked and saved for. The bible contains many examples and exortations to work and to save…how the ants are wise in saving for the winter. Yes, I know many work…they have to pay for the things they find to be important for them just like those of us who don’t happen to agree with their particular philosophies.”

Other facebooker replies, “I would suggest you read ANY of the Church Father’s on that passage, you seem to be taking your interpretations from 20th Century America and ignoring what 2 milllenia of Christians have believed that passage to mean. it is the height of American Prosperity arrogance.”

To this I replied, “I know many are trying, just like tea partiers, to make America better. They are expressing their freedom to speak. Some are downright crazy, but I’m sure that’s not all. The squeaky wheel syndome, I guess, when it comes to media attention on that. But I do think there is much more going on than just the tax issue. Biting the hand that feeds you is only going to hurt our economy. Regulation itself imposed by our government can often have consequences beyond which we cannot see today. Every law has many consequences we do not count on. All the best intentions, but this could turn out to be pretty ugly for us regular families relying on jobs…because those corporations are the ones that hire most of us. And they are the ones that support even the government with the current taxes they have. So when the economy is bad, even govt. workers suffer. More taxes on the corporations, more regulation…it has to be WELL thought out and looked at. Because no one is going to give the people better when they are giving more to the government. The tax burden is always passed on to the public.”

And I added further:

“Jesus names several commandments, and that arrogant man claims HE met them all perfectly. It was about HIS sin, it’s in the text. Mark 10:17-31 in context. It’s about him “trusting in riches” not in God. He thought he was perfect enough, and could not give up what he truly trusted in. It was not about giving up riches, it was about giving up his misplaced trust.”

Other facebooker reply:

“i interpret scripture in light of Christian Teaching and Tradition, I do not rely on my own intellect to interpret God’s Word, because I am not equipped to do so. If you feel that you know more about scripture than the Church Fathers, that is fine, I do not.”

My reply to the attitude given:
“Hey, I got my teaching somewhere. I didn’t make this up whole cloth. And I’m not attacking JA for her opinion directly, nor you.”

Original poster:

“If you look at some of the numbers, it’s downright scary. We are in a recession, and the super-rich just keep getting super-richer. Meanwhile, hard work isn’t enough anymore. Our parents’ generation told us to go to college so we could have a better life. They said, don’t worry about the loans, you’re investing in your future. Then, when the job well dried up, they said, Oh, too bad, I guess we were wrong about that whole education thing, have fun with your debt. Yes, I should take responsibility for my own choices (even though the pressure to go to college when I graduated from high school was insane). But when student loan interest rates keep rising, and you can’t just take a job at McDonald’s because it doesn’t pay enough to make loan payments, let alone pay rent, and people are dying because they can’t afford health insurance, yeah, I think I am entitled to be a little ticked off at the establishment.
And frankly, I’m tired of the argument that Christians should be helping by giving to charity, not supporting social programs, and that churches should be the ones feeding the hungry and housing the poor. Why on earth do you want all that responsibility? Can your church afford the millions of dollars that national social programs cost? Mine can’t. And as much as this nation pretends to be a Christian nation, if we were supposed to run the entire social safety net based on the tithes of church-going Christians, it would be woefully inadequate. The entire country – Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, you name it – needs to work together to make things better.”

My response: (and what I meant by own community is it’s own responsibilities within the body)
“Each church has it’s own community, and my church does work very hard to help and meet as many needs as it can…but Jesus also mentioned the poor will always be with you. He was seeking people to follow Him, and to serve when they could. The focus was on serving Him first, then meeting the needs within the body, then beyond. And trust me, JA, I am aware that church people are NOT perfect, and not all “our” ideas are perfect. As a Christian, I do know there IS selfishness, and greed…many examples. But I do think the bible does provide the Gospel despite us.”

Original poster said:
” I don’t want to play the Bible verse game. For every verse you find praising posterity, I can find another condemning wealth. That side-steps the whole point. The point is the general attitude portrayed by “Christian” pundits in the media: That somehow, poor people deserve to be poor, and that they are stealing from me if they need help. Which is decidedly un-Christian.”

My response:
” I personally was making that point about the “bible verse game” myself in quoting the ones showing prosperity itself is NOT an evil. What is wrong with people is not an opinion about how our government handles this, it’s about sin. And yes, you have a point in that greed is not okay. Pride is not okay. The problem is with sin and NOT with whether you support one political agenda or another.”

Original poster:
” And if a “Christian” is railing against the lazy welfare leeches who steal his tax dollars, I have a REALLY hard time believing that he is going to let his tithe money support them, either. That’s where the “Churches should be feeding the poor, not the government” argument really breaks down for me.”

My return:

“I do think it’s possible that if I heard someone arguing that way when someone is in true need, not just purposely not working and “working the system” we would agree.”

Original poster:
“No, prosperity itself is not evil. But the love of money is the root of all evil, and the fact is that in the United States, very few people get rich without exploiting somebody else to get there. And the Bible says that it’s harder for a camel to fit through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven and Jacob sent his sons to ask for food from Egypt. It’s okay to need help. But because we have this mindset that working hard to earn everything we need in life is the only good thing, we are tricked into not even accepting help when we need it.

My response:

“Yes, I do not think when needed help is above us. We’ve asked for it. But I don’t blame corporations NOR my government because I have need a times. Sometimes we cannot HELP our circumstances, and sadly, sometimes our circumstances are a result of our poor money management. We have experienced both…
We do have a bit of pride and don’t LIKE to accept help, we’d rather be the ones giving actually. But yes, we’ve accepted help and no one in the church has ever suggested (to us anyway) there is anything wrong with it.”

Now, I know my ping pong with these women was not the best, but I did try to redirect a bit. The original poster was dead set on saying Christians are selfish. True, we can be selfish. Some of those who represent the church aren’t actually Christians anyway. But it wasn’t about defending the church for me. It was about trying to explain they are using the bible incorrectly. Note how they picked out verses to say the rich in America should pay more taxes. Well, it doesn’t say that people should pay MORE taxes in the bible, just that we should pay the taxes asked of us. And the point of the mention of money is often to draw our attention away from money and toward Christ. Money is the root of all evil because people pursuit it rather than Christ. Whatever solutions we come up with for America are likely going to be practical and political. Using scripture to back us is dangerous and better be used correctly. I think, if we look at our nation, a large part of the failure in the country is greed within the hearts of individuals and families, not just in the hearts of CEO’s. It’s evident we’re going through more than just a readjustment, people really have a wrong idea of the bible, and the meaning of Christ’s words.

I hope I did something good in engaging others in this topic. I do feel it might be a fruitless effort! These women only want to use Christ as a means to an end. It’s just the same with many.

I do know the church cannot be the “social justice” branch of the world either. I do think some of the jobs our government does would better be handled by the church if and only if the church follows it’s role given by God. I do not believe the church is in the world to make it a better place, though I do think because of the church, God has blessed the world in many ways. I think those who are true believers do, because of Christ and His sacrifice, often do wonderful things and reach out to help those who live and work around them. It’s the natural goodness that comes from the heart of God. But, it is not a mandate for us as believers to fix all of society. Please correct me where I am wrong, I do believe the first place the church is meant to serve and help is within it’s own body. Going outside is secondary.

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Praying for Peace

I pray peace at this time and am sad it’s come to this…

http://ingridschlueter.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/catharsis/

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Talk About Confusion…

For a week or so some of the people I really enjoy reading and listening to entered into a conflict with one another.  I spent time confused, and also contacted both parties.  They are both busy people with busy online lives as well as having full time offline lives.  Both have been strong in discernment ministries.  I am not as confused, and have decided that there may possibly be error on the part of both individuals.  I refuse to “take sides” but instead am observing and figuring out what is going on.  I am not wise, and am not perfect.  I am sinful, a worm, a needy sinful worm.  I am just a regular mom and Christian out here.  My time is precious to me, and spending time reading and listening to radio shows to benefit my education on biblical issues and discernment is getting mucked up with this thing.  But that doesn’t matter, I can and should always look to Christ first, not to men and women.  You see, whatever wrong that is happening I can commit, I can easily do myself.  Even if there is not a sin involved, any thing I perceive or just imagine may be happening, I could do myself. 

It is my understanding that the parties have been in contact with one another.  It is also my understanding that there is not a resolution, it may mean one of the two is wrong, is disobedient to God in their actions.  It’s not about being loving because attempting to pull a brother or sister in Christ away from error is a deep love.  Speaking the truth is love.  I pray that even if I do not ever figure out who is right or wrong, that God will be glorified.  I will also hope that I do not sin in this situation any further than I already have in thought or deed. 

It hurts to see people who were once on the same side line up against each other.  I believe there is a good reason and God will allow the truth to prevail.  Christ will prevail.

On another note, a friend of mine has discovered she has breast cancer.  She’s young (33) and has 5 children.  She spent two nights last week talking to me…both nights were all nighters for me.  This doesn’t help me homeschool and get things done.  I don’t want to neglect my family, and yet know I needed to be there for her on the days I was able to.  She will find out more this week.  If you read this please pray for her.  She’s scared as her kids will likely end up in a public school though she has deep convictions she should homeschool.  She also has been told she’s bipolar, and has been taking medication.  She is repetative in this extreme situation, telling people the same thing over and over again.  I spent over 4 hours one night listening to her repeat the same story over and over again…maybe 2-3 times an hour.  She is not handling things in a way others can understand.  It’s hard to know what to do for her.  I pray, I listen, that is all I can do right now.

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I don’t know how to define what I am…

Yes, I am a Christian woman. I am a wife and a mom. But what “brand” of Christian? I am a protestant. This is for sure. I believe in the Trinity (three persons one God…not easy to comprehend but I can sort of get it…). I believe the basics that exclude me from being a “christian like” cult member, basically the creed that goes, “I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen” I believe I was chosen, partly because there is NO WAY in my family I would have chosen Christ on my own. No way. I believe my faith was given to me by God and not something I made or did on my own. I don’t remember a time when I didn’t believe in God though I do feel there was a time when I was converted or at least confirmed to be truly His. (I think I was 7, yes I prayed a prayer, but it was more a knowing I was His for sure, that’s it…and it was in a Nazarene church.) I do believe God does work in lives, He’s not hands off. It’s the Holy Spirit working in the heart of a believer, leading, comforting. However, it’s more in hindsight that it can be seen to be the Holy Spirit usually though I have had times I do feel Him working in my life in real time. I do believe there are things I am meant to do and these things do come about, but it’s not a purpose driven thing. I believe I am a sinner, saved by grace and through the mercy of our Lord because Jesus Christ died on the cross. The most important thing though is that He raised from the dead. I hope in this, I count on this. I believe He will come again and raise up all people from the dead in order to judge everyone. I believe I will be judged and found not guilty only because Christ paid the penalty and I am His. I used to believe in something like “pray this prayer” for salvation and now I don’t though I do think salvation can happen to a person during prayer. I do think there is an acceptance of the fact that one is in Christ, a repentance and a trusting in Christ, and this is where the praying can be. I believe we are baptised by the Holy Spirit when we are saved but that we should follow with water baptism. I am not offended by infant baptism, but I cannot see how that is something that should be done. The circumcision argument seems a little bit off to me. I believe in taking communion together in the body of Christ in rememberance of Him and of His body and His blood. I do not believe the elements change into His body and actual blood. I also am confused a bit about the Lutheran idea of presence.

I believe prayer is a time when we express our adoration of God, a time to confess sins, a time to thank God, and a time to make requests to Him (think ACTS). I believe we hear from God in His word. I do also believe we are to learn from others, but this is NOT God’s word. It is okay for me to seek older women (as a woman) or teachers to guide as older women and pastors are told specifically to teach a person like me. If they are getting their instruction from the bible, then I’m good learning from them. I do think God does want us in a church and with other believers so we can be held accountable, so we can learn from others. I wish to be in fellowship with other believers and have always sought this out. Worship…I believe we can worship with our actions and words, and with our attitude. However, I do believe I can fool myself into thinking I’m worshipping when I really am not. It’s hard for me at times to worship rightly.

Gifts are a confusing topic for me right now. I am tending to think that the Evangelical church has misused scripture when it comes to gifts, and so has the Charismatic church. Sure, we’re all made in a unique way. We each have personalities and propensities (did I say that right?). But, I do not believe a survey can show what God desires for me to do with my life. I am frustrated by being plugged into some fill in the dot thing and told I am a teacher, a prophet, and a discerner, then told a list of jobs I can do in the church (like you would do in high school with a guidance counselor). Annoying. I do think there are things God has given me since birth He intends for me to use. I also think circumstances mold us, and the things we are able to do at one time we may not be able to do later…but things we haven’t been able to do we might later. It’s not like we have this little treasure box we open and one day discover we are gifted as a pastor or as a good hostess. Did He ever command us to spend time sitting in a circle with others talking about a survey we did and talking about our special gifts as if God were some fairy godmother and we were sleeping beauty? Ugh.

That said, I believe for some reason I am critical of teachers and am skeptical at times when I need to be. I think this is only by God’s grace, and I have learned to follow a thread of information to find where it leads. I pick up on cues from a teacher (not right away unfortunately all the time). If something doesn’t sound right, I go searching. This I think is part of my makeup whether through circumstance or just the way God made me when He was forming me. My husband trusts me time and again when I say, “that teacher isn’t right.” I cannot always point to a scripture on that day, but give me time, I’ll figure it out somehow. I have been duped too, many times, but at some point I eventually see a red flag and I’m on it. Usually I am afraid to trust this at first, it takes time for me to actually stand up and say something is wrong until I feel I know for sure. I believe it is my duty to be discerning. So I think it’s important to study the bible.

The bible is also important to study in general so we know what God wants us to know, and so we can know Him. I believe that every teacher should be tested by the scriptures. I believe I should be tested there also, and I believe I am such a terrible sinner. Thank God He had men record the Good News and not just the law there!

Oh, I could probably ramble on and on about what I believe. What am I though? I mean, I read about Arminians, Calvinists…and then there’s the denomination. I am not at this time Lutheran though I am liking some Lutherans out there and how they really treasure the bible and the gospel…and go after false teachers. I like the serious Presbyterians out there. I just am not into that infant baptism thing and then the communion thing….in the way a Lutheran would be. I tend to like dunking for baptism too, though I’m not a stickler on it.

Am I confusing or wishy washy? Too far from the true teachings of the Bible? Am I in some terrible error? I pray God pulls me to Him always. It is so humiliating to be such an idiot and horrible and humbling to see how much I do not know, and what a sinner I am!

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Blog I like so far…

Check it out!

http://solasisters.blogspot.com/

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DJP in the comments section

Pyromaniacs blogger Dan Phillips hit what I needed to read in a comment of a recent post on Charismatics…all credit to him and NOT to me, but I have to quote this comment completely:

“Everyone has good days, bad days. Sometimes you feel close to God, sometimes you don’t. The feelings are not God talking to you. There is no Scriptural warrant to turn your eyes away from the (hel-lo?) Word of God to reading tea-leaves, feelings, chicken-livers, or events. That message was so clear that an admitted non-Christian emailed me that he got it.

So, suffering Christian who is walking with the Lord to the best of your knowledge of Scripture, your experiences of trials and treachery and pain are not God telling you that He has rejected you. Look to Jesus, look to God’s word. Jesus saves, signs and portents don’t. Stand on Him and His Word.

And, despairing Christian who knows the same gloom and darkness of Spirit — in spite of walking in faith and obedience — which David, Luther, Spurgeon and countless others knew, those feelings are not God telling you He has rejected you. Look to Christ, look to God’s word. Jesus saves, He is what matters — not how saved or loved you feel.

God rejected Job’s comforters then, and He rejects them now. Supposed Christians will tell you (as you see here) that your tragedies are some sort of extra-biblical revelation, or that (as here) if you admit your suffering aloud there’s something wrong with you, and maybe you need drugs.

The truth: you can suffer while loved by God, and while in the will of God (1 Peter 1:6; 2:20-25; 4:16-19). Fix your hope completely on God’s mercy at Christ’s return (1 Peter 1:13). Your trials will turn to joy and glory (2 Corinthians 4:16-18).

Never lose sight of Him.”

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2010/09/good-news-from-far-country.html

Good post too….

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I want to worship

I am going to go to church today to worship, learn, and fellowship.  Not at all interested in drama (meaning human disputes).  I pray for the Lord’s church and His people.  May we all wake fresh and new today in fellowship with Him.  I think I’d prefer to fellowship than to focus, wouldn’t you?

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Not Ashamed to be called Christian

1 Peter 4:16-19 (New International Version from Bible Gateway)

¹⁶However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. ¹⁷For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? ¹⁸And,
   “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
      what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

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My Observations on Antioch and Christians

 (Acts 11 from Bible Gateway NIV version)  ¹⁹Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, telling the message only to Jews. ²⁰Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. ²¹The Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord. ²²News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. ²³When he arrived and saw the evidence of the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts. ²⁴He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord. ²⁵Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, ²⁶and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. ²⁷During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. ²⁸One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) ²⁹The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. ³⁰This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.

Why would I want to disassociate myself with the term “Christian?”  These disciples did everything I would hope to do as a believer in Christ, a disciple.  They preached and shared the gospel, they took care of those in need within the body, they spent time hearing good teaching, they supported each other. Moreover, they had the Holy Spirit, they had faith. They are the ones called Christian, what gives people the idea that those persecuting them were the ones who labeled them as such?  Maybe it was the name given by Romans…but it has stuck for a reason. 

It seems to me the seeker friendly style churches miss something when they refuse to use the name Christian.  They say they want to have numbers added to them, they want to meet the needs of others and serve in love, and yet don’t call themselves Christian?  Those who were called Christian in Antioch had it right, so I’d rather associate with them and not rename myself just to make those around me who don’t believe in Christ more comfortable. 

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Who Am I? Why I won’t change my identity as Christian….

I am a Christian, that is who I am.  This means I believe in Jesus Christ, He is my savior because I need Him.  I sin, have sinned, need His sacrifice for my sins.  He is the only way to heaven, and He drew me to Him.  On my own, I would not have come to Him. 

In the “Who Am I?” section of this blog a few recent comments have tried to point out that they do not want to be associated with the term Christian because of history and the ways people have acted while calling themselves Christian.  To me, it’s a denial of the body.  Anyone can say “I’m a Christian” but not anyone IS a Christian.  To disassociate myself with those in history who died as Christians is to deny who I am.  I am one of those.  I would die for Christ as a follower, as one who is also known as Christian.  I know people believe lies about the body of Christ.  I know people have done things in the name of Christ and have not behaved as they should.  I believe denying my Christian brothers and sisters throughout history, and those now around the world truly being persecuted is cowardly.  Making others more comfortable with a new name won’t work.  If you are truly regenerated and have a new label, they’ll lie about you too.  If you walk around following Jesus with this new label, you’ll eventually have people join you who will taint the name.  It’s what happens, no way can any group be true believers and not offend the world around them.  So, renaming yourself will backfire.  People are not persecuting Christians because of the name Christian.  They are persecuting Christians because they don’t like Christ.  People are not refusing to join the body of  Christ because of the misdeeds of past or current people labeling themselves Christian, they are refusing to join the body of Christ because they refuse to be saved, to give up their sin, to truly follow.  We are all sinners, and only through the grace and mercy of Christ are any of us saved.  A new name won’t change this fact.

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