I’ve been listening to both Ingrid (Crosstalk America) and Chris on Pirate Christian Radio. I believe both have great things to teach and both have helped me a lot through their podcasts. They have worked together in the past. A battle began when Chris was in a photo with some major emergent people (, I’d have to look back now at things to say who was in the photo) and called them “friends.” Ingrid expressed her concerns that a Christian, especially a leader, should not be chummy with wolves. Then they had a difference of opinion about Dan Kimball. I know it’s been Kimball’s assertion that the bloggers in discernment ministries have been outright lying at times and are sensationalistic (if I’m reading him right). I really need to provide you with links to explain it all. At any rate, I’ve been very saddened by the battle. I’ve been watching and hoping they could work this out. Now she’s resigning. It does appear they’ve had private contacts too, I’ve seen some of the emails published, and Rosebrough did warn her he was coming to attack…as she’d commented about a photo of Horton (Lutheran leadership) with Rick Warren.
It all makes me tired and sad. These two seemed to be on the same team, and now it appears they are enemies.
If it seems I’m wishy washy, I am. Ingrid could tell you I’ve made comments to support her, and I do. I also have tried to encourage Chris, give him a chance to explain and waited to see what he would do. I feel there are mistakes on both sides in handling things, and right now I do believe Chris is in error on how he’s attacked Ingrid. It is hard to come out and make a comment directly for me, I don’t know these two personally, only what I see them write. I personally, being a woman who has seen this destruction in a church I once loved, can really see Ingrid’s point. I just want men to be men and cut ties with all these terrible leaders. I want them to stand up for the church and encourage other men who are in leadership to make strong stands. I see a lot of people not wanting to be divisive.
I think Chris sees it as his job to share the gospel to the emergent crowd in the hopes that one might be saved. I think he must have reason to believe some can be changed. I do also think with Kimball, Chris believes he is a brother in Christ. He also doesn’t agree with a lot Kimball has done, but somehow can keep a positive contact with him. He’s having a hard time though being positive with Ingrid.
I am torn on this, sometimes seeing one point or the other, but to be honest, right now I am wishing Chris would back off. But of course, it’s too late for Ingrid to get back into it.
Hi Christian Lady, thanks for trying to summarize things. I noticed your link incoming to the blog. The situation long ago stopped being about Dan Kimball or anything else I posted on my blog. Chris’s violently worded, threatening and unprovoked emails to me last week were so bad that my husband had to intervene because they were harassment. I did and said nothing involving Chris to deserve it last week. He spent two days mocking and ridiculing me on his podcast, playing music clips while he did a “dramatic” reading of a post I wrote that he disagreed with, said I had “Zero discernment”, said I should be “picking bananas in South America” and in his emails threatened a “full broadside” of me, said I was an “enemy” of Christ, and told me to “prepare to be boarded” because he had loaded his pirate “cannons” at me. It was disgusting, carnal conduct that no decent man would engage in, let alone a believer who had worked with me!
Chris Rosebrough has been used as a tool to destroy unity and cooperation in the discernment blog world. I published his threatening emails (unprovoked) but have since deleted the Crosstalk Blog as God is showing me that the spiritual climate is to the point where my season of work in this area is over. When godly men with their blogs refused (after promising they would initially) to defend me against Chris’s mockery and slander on his podcast last week, I realized that it was over. Ken Silva and Mike Ratliff both claimed they would speak out on the public slander (I have the emails), but are intimidated by Chris’s tactics. It’s a tragic situation, but I am confident that God will sort it out! In the mean time, 23 years of warning about the growing apostasy is enough. Now I am going to go make cookies, something I haven’t done in a while! 🙂
The gossip those of you are spreading around the alleged “emergent” church being false – the ways you twist what’s being offered there and speak your version out on the internet is truly shameful. God have mercy for the damage that you are doing, while I’m sure you’re well-intended, the things that Ingrid has said (and you) are deeply unsettling and pretty shocking. You’ve both been given quite a bit of grace by these people (though no wonder they are upset). It makes me sick and sad for all involved.
And this is me being direct with you, CL. What you don’t understand is you – with your intent to truly support was is good, holy and righteous (and I believe that) – are actually throwing the first punch, so to speak, as you call others Biblical obedience into question. So people like me are holding you accountable to that, I’m not attacking you. If you and Ingrid are going to wade into these waters and call peoples’ actual commitment to the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Gospel into question? You’re going to have to withstand some criticism as you do so. Your intent is admirable, your impact much less so. And you’re accountable for the impact you’re having and should be open to hearing that directly. It’s getting frustrating, watching people like you and Ingrid treat others with such suspicion, calling the most precious part of themselves – their salvation! Into question, and then claiming that those who are honest with you in how awful that is as spiritually attacking you or treating you with hostility.
Simply put, you cannot discern the spiritual state of another, only God does that. If something isn’t sitting well with you or your family? Then by all means, leave it. That’s a good decision. But to publicly lambast it? Call someone’s actual commitment to Jesus into question on the Internet and use their name? It’s so shocking. You need to wake up a little bit to how harmful this is. And someone needs to tell you. So I’m telling you. Try not to be defensive and really listen. Thank you.
Please Sad State, go on. I need more information as to who I have lambasted by name here…to see what you have picked up on. I will say I didn’t mention my former church by name here that I recall. My intent was NOT to do that, so if I have, please let me know so I can take that part down.
There has been so much written about this that explains the situation that I don’t know if it bears repeating here. Ingrid took a very principled approach though all of this, and although I am a former financial supporter and listener of Chris Rosebrough’s program, I think his actions through this are unsupportable.
Scripture warns us:
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
I would challenge you to read through the documentation I saved regarding this whole thing. There’s really not much Ingrid did wrong except speak unclearly once or twice (which she admits). However Chris has been all over the board sloppy, demanding far more grace than he is willing to allow for anyone else who disagrees with him.
When i go back and read through stuff I have to wonder what the heck was going on in Chris’s mind to have blown up at her the way he did, unless he is just looking for someone to justify his close friendships with heretics. Remember he called Nadia Bolz Weber (the F-word slinging GLBTQ ELCA pastorix) his “dear friend” — now I would have a hard time with my husband calling ANY woman even a solid Christian one, his ‘dear friend.’
He hadn’t gone off the rails at that point but I think judging by his next stunt it sure seems as though he took it all very personally and then overreacted when people were shocked that he pronounced Dan Kimball “orthodox and biblical and sound.” (tongue in cheek there, because he sounded exactly like John Piper oohing and ahhing over Rick Warren, to me).
That was when he really laid in to Ingrid, and that is what it has all come back to. “guilt by association” etc. We’ve talked to him on the phone and reminded him there is a difference between discounting someone’s argumentation based on their personal associations (which IS a fallacy) and pointing out to a friend that their friendships are unhealthy (this is not the logical fallacy called guilt by association).
The Bible constantly condemns people based on their close associations, btw and tells them to come out from among them and be separate.
SadState said ” It’s getting frustrating, watching people like you and Ingrid treat others with such suspicion, calling the most precious part of themselves – their salvation! Into question, and then claiming that those who are honest with you in how awful that is as spiritually attacking you or treating you with hostility.
Simply put, you cannot discern the spiritual state of another, only God does that. If something isn’t sitting well with you or your family? Then by all means, leave it. That’s a good decision. But to publicly lambast it?”
SS should probably apply that to the Pirate, since he was the first one to go public and call Ingrid and Deb Dombrowski a liar on all this way back in November and now calls Ingrid an enemy of the truth. Really? Isn’t that judging her salvation? Didn’t Chris pronounce Dan Kimball saved, also? Chris also pronounced his ‘dear friends’ the emergent leaders heretics/unsaved. So according to you, how can he judge that?
Maybe you ought to educate yourself on the entire matter before you go after CL for expressing sorrow over what actually is a very sad situation.
Sad State: The gossip those of you are spreading around about the Online Discernment ministries – the ways you twist what’s being offered there and speak your version out on the internet is truly shameful. God have mercy for the damage that you are doing, while I’m sure you’re well-intended, the things that people like Nadia Bolz Weber, Richard Abanes, Chris R, Dan Kimball, etc. and others have said about discernment bloggers are deeply unsettling and pretty shocking. You’ve all been given quite a bit of grace by these people. It makes me sick and sad for all involved.
The above link is all the possible links I could gather on this subject.
I hope you find it helpful.
The Emergent church is not only apostate but we have the biblical directive to name names and warn others about them. They are leading many astray and are not teaching about the true God of Scripture. They deny the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. I would encourage all to please, read the Bible and learn how to study it properly to guard against being duped.
Sad State, I’ve talked directly with both Ingrid and Chris about this situation, and I’m grieved by where things stand between them. Ingrid is right that this stopped being about the original topics a long time ago, and that’s too bad; I struggle with those questions all the time, and I think Christians can reach different conclusions in good conscience about many of them. Unfortunately, Chris’s doesn’t seem willing to admit the wrongness of his treatment of Ingrid, and without that I don’t see a way for him to get back to the discussion that’s worth having.
I’m blessed to have been able to attend the Psalm 119 Conference in MN last week, which challenged, convicted, and edified me about what discernment is and how it should be done biblically (hint: it starts, ends, and lives in the Gospel). I would recommend it to anyone.
One other thing: You claim that this blogger and Ingrid are questioning the salvation of all the people they write about. To my recollection, Ingrid has written about the teaching and/or behavior of Chris, Dan Kimball, and several others without ever saying anything about their salvation. Christians act badly (and even teach wrongly) all the time; that’s sinful but it doesn’t mean they aren’t saved.
Jason also offered to Chris to go through the whole thing and try to sort it out publicly one on one with out any comments from the peanut gallery to cloud things up. Chris KNOWS Jason is not someone who fights unfairly. And yet, somehow Chris doesn’t have time, in amongst playing farmville. He has “REAL” heretics to expose, and “real” false teachers.