The sermon on the mount equals recovery? I never would have thought that it could be boiled down to something so simple. I guess I don’t need to study that part of my bible. Thank you John Baker for providing churches with a book, and Rick Warren for promoting a study for small groups so no one has to think about this section of scripture ever again. According to you guys, it’s all about our healing and happiness. Yipee! I guess I should get into a small group and study this book (rather than the bible) and I’ll feel great. I might even stop overeating or might deal with the demons of all the problems and hang ups in my life. I’m sure I could share this series with Christians being persecuted around the world for their faith and they will agree, it’s all about recovery. Thanks boys for that!
(okay, so I’m a little bit sarcastic here…I just don’t like the marketing, the promises, nor the twisting of the bible scriptures into an 8 step self help plan).
https://www.lifeshealingchoices.com/
I’ve been to a celebrate recovery meeting and interacted with people involved in cr and never go the impression that the Bible should be twisted into anything.
My experience has been that certain scriptures are relevant and helpful to those of us recovering from drugs, alcohol, and other compulsive behaviours.
These scriptures can be emphasized to help our particular condition. Yet this does not mean ignoring the rest of the Bible.
As far as I can see, cr has been helpful to many who have got themselves trapped by addictions.
Ciao.
Chaz
I understand the Bible can be helpful to people with many addictions. Regeneration occurs through the act of the Holy Spirit.
When it is stated that the sermon on the mount can be boiled down into 8 principles and that can be boiled down to recovery…that is twisting the scriptures for marketing. I do not know if the celebrate recovery meetings do this, but I know the marketing for this book does twist scripture and makes claims that have nothing to do with the point of the sermon by Christ.
I havent read the book so I can’t comment.
I do tire of marketing of the gospel and of ministries being bait and switch sales schemes.
If this is what is happening, I would agree and be equally disappointed and opposed.
I wonder if the authors are looking at the sermon on the mount and drawing these 8 prinicples as ONE interpretation amongst others. In other words… perhaps this is some of what can be drawn from the sermon on the mount?
Again, havent read the book you refer to so can’t say.
It is nothing new that christians draw different things from the same scriptures. And as long as Christians have existed, there has been debate and variance over what any given scripture means.
I for one take a lot of recovery-relevant help from many scriptures. For instance, Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
To me…. this just jumps out of freedom from addiction. But that is to me. Because this is what I feel has happened to me and the message I can carry to others suffering similarly.
It also jumps out at my battle with depression in which I felt like a prisoner in my own head.
Now I don’t expect this scripture to have the same meaning to someone who has not suffered from these things. Yet the meaning they draw is equally valid and who am I to say they are wrong.
I believe God speaks to us through scriptures, ministry, and frankly, many unexpected sources in ways we need to be reached. In fact, the exact same communication from God can touch two people completely differently. I have experienced it many times.
So I would not have any concern if the 8 principles was represented as one of the interpretations of the sermon on the mount. I can’t imagine the authors feel it is the only on though.
Ciao.
Chaz
Jesus himself showed that scripture has rich meaning, pointing to scripture to show that He is the Messiah. Christ never showed a “new” meaning but a truer meaning, a full meaning.
There are correct and incorrect interpretations. There is only one true meaning. You cannot just look at a series of verses and say they mean one thing if they are intended by God for something else. If someone is looking at scripture that way, they might as well be reading fortune cookies.
Now, again, not having read the book I do not know that the author for sure twists the meaning. However, he’s allowing his marketing (through Saddleback) to make it appear that the meaning of the Beattitudes is “recovery” and there are “8 principles” you can glean from this section of scripture for spirtual renewal. It seems, from the marketing, a lot of promises are made.
Simply put, the Holy Spirit makes us a new creation. Through grace a mercy a person is saved.
The Beatitudes are a sermon that shows the character of those who are blessed and believe. They are not a way to salvation.
Chaz,
Spurgeon says it better than I could ever dream to…
https://christianlady.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/spurgeon-on-the-beatitudes/
Have you ever been a addicted to drugs or alcohol?
Chaz,
I can see where this discussion is headed, and I do not see the relevance of knowing my addicitons. The sermon on the mount remains as Christ stated it, and any changes to it’s meaning are wrong. A man came to our former church and presented the resurrection of Lazarus as a story about how he needed community to help him remove his grave clothes which are life’s burdens and trials. Though there are places in the bible that refer to believers carrying one another’s burden’s and not forsaking meeting together, this man was wrong to mistreat scripture no matter the motive. Definitely, to say the sermon on the mount can be funneled into 8 principles that basically mean “recovery” is improper. If I have addictions, or if I do not have addictions, it doesn’t change the fact that misusing the scriptures is wrong.
Yes, I evaded the question. I’m not trying to be snide, but if I say I am addicted to alcohol or drugs…or gambling, food, or anything else…would that make my comments more valid? Would you argue that I have no understanding if I say I have no addictions?
Wow… a lot has been read into my simple question.
All I am saying is that those of us (which may very well include you) who have been completely overtaken by some sort of compulsive addiction… including but not limited to drugs and alcohol… are so relieved when we find something that helps us get free.
Most of us have tried numerous approaches. Most of us have been reached out to by churches and christians who have little to no understanding of addiction as it affects some of us.
Like Dr. Bob, one of the co-founders of AA, I too have been prayed over and prayed for many times. I have been at the centre of much “laying on of hands” and “deliverance ministry”, but still continued to relapse.
All of these people had the best of intentions but little understanding of an alcoholic and addict of my type.
I was (am) a middle-class suburban professional and family man. I have an education, career, and kids. I was a public figure and had been a leader in our local church. I ended up so deep in drugs and booze, both of which were so contrary to everything else in my life… and I have no shortage of self-discipline and determination… verified by successes in many areas of life.
Yet… somehow, I was caught in addiction so deep, that I could not stop on my own. I tried many things including church-based recovery. I finally discovered what worked for me. Something that many christians feel is against their belief of the Bible as they see it. (I disagree sharply with these people but that is another matter).
My point? Well… when someone finds something that helps them when they are as deep in their addiction as I was, all they can really see is hope for a way out. And if it works, it gives them a chance to live long enough for God to do more in their life.
Further to my point… no matter if you disagree with what you read in or about Celebrate Recovery, it may still be helping people. God uses imperfect people and imperfect circumstances.
I know a certain minister quite well who heads up an organization that has reached and helped thousands. Yet he has some ongoing skeletons in his closet that nobody would probably believe. Yet I witnessed these skeletons with my own eyes. In fact, someone brought these to the local church and they hushed.
I believe the origins of CR are sincere. Yet many a sincere endeavor can morph into something tainted.
So maybe what you are seeing is the imperfections of the efforts of some believers.
Who knows.
All I can tell you is addiction is no small thing and so far, the church has not had too many effective solutions.
Ciao.
Chaz
Chaz,
Addiction is not something I take lightly, and it’s my bet that this “recovery” book and series (that will be done by whole churches not just the particular addicts in a church from how it’s billed) is making big promises that will not be fulfilled. It’s just a guess on my part, but I do think it’s all part of marketing and part of making money/gaining followers.
The church does struggle to deal with addiction because addicts struggle to deal with addiction. There is no “magic” formula. The bible itself does not promise to be a magic formula. Even Paul says he does what he does not want to do in the flesh. Promises that people will be delivered from addiction are empty many times because it’s something within the person that has to change and that’s so difficult. If the thing someone is addicted to is available, there’s always a chance for a relapse. We humans are weak, we will fail. I do understand that even Christians will fail.
I think any program a church produces needs to keep it’s integrity by properly handling scripture. I am sure there are areas of scripture that can be used to encourage an addict without scriptural misuse and peddling. I do not know about this book, but I would suspect that relationships are important in making gains toward freedom from addiction as well as a person’s motivation has to somehow be bigger than the reward of addiction. People have overcome addictions without Christian influence…so I suspect it’s something about motivation and support that helps. I do think that Christ can and does free people from addiction, but I believe the motivation to serve him and the relationships in the church all are factored in.
I do not object to Christian involvement in recovery. I object to the disservice that is done when promises are made that cannot be made, and when scripture is mishandled to force a recovery process…if that indeed is what this sermon series/book/program does.
CL….
I am enjoying the dialogue and in now way wish to be be argumentative or offensive. So if I have come accross this way, please accept my apology.
I suspect we are not far off one another in our our viewpoints.
I would have to say that I barely know of the series you speak about so I have no direct opinion on the books.
Conceptually, I am in full agreement with your point. Let me give a very vivid example. I went to a “Christian Recovery” program that boasted a ‘98% success rate’ and claimed to be “The Proven Cure to the Drug Problem”.
I was probably as uncomfortable with these claims (promises) as you appear to be with the CR material.
This organization disparaged any other approach to recovery. Yet when failures happened and they did frequently, the organization covered it up and reasoned and talked around the incidents. It was preposterous. I saw no evidence of their claims. Not even close.
Yet this program was “sold” to churches and well-meaning believers to solicit support for this endeavor. And it continues today.
I saw little to no humility in the leaders to be able to say that they may be way off track… which I believe largely they are….otherwise why would they have to lie and cover up?
So ya, these big promises are not something I see as valid or in any way wise. It leaves these organizations looking like bafoons.
What I saw a lot in my church experience is ‘Empire Building’…. but it was often referred to as ‘Ministry Building’. In buiding any endeavor, there is a tremendous amount of pride and impure motive that can be woven in for the leaders. Prestige, money, titles. So when things go off track…. and I can’t ever see that they wont when prestige, money, and titles are involved, then nobody has the humility to say they are off base.
Jesus as I read about him in the Bible had a simple and direct ministry. He was focused on DOING as much as talking. He had little to no organization. His apostles do not seem to have had rank or title in their grouping.
If anything… Jesus encouraged people not to tell of his works. He was not about promotion. He just “did”.
Anyway… I am with you on the discomfort of big promises. Nobody know really what each of us need. I had been told with certainty by many Christians what they felt I needed. They were wrong. Yet I still found what I needed and give God the thanks for it. In fact, my relationship with God has never felt more simple and real.
I stopped trying to pattern my relationship to the expectations and perceptions of others. I simply seek Him daily and do my best to follow what I believe is His guidance.
I don’t always get everything right, but today I am sober, clean, and living a healthy life that is prospering in many areas.
For this I give God the credit. All I did was show up and be as obedient as possible. God did the rest.
Ciao.
Chaz
Chaz,
I didn’t find you argumentative or offensive. I believe your concern is that I would dismiss a program outright. You may have been thinking I would give platitudes and say, “If you trust Jesus you would be healed.” This, though can be true if it’s God’s will…is not always true in this life. We carry our sin nature, our flesh, our weakness with us to the grave despite being made a “new creation” because we are not yet glorified.
I was seeing a possibility of compromise of the scriptures in the “well it works for some.” If I was incorrect in this, let me know. I just felt I had to defend the scritpure as pure in itself, and share my fear that this program is possibly using the bible as a means to some sort of end that this particular section wasn’t intended for. Even if the motive is good, to help people, the twisting or changing of the meaning is not acceptable. Again, it’s in the promotion I’m seeing this and not that I have read the actual book or witnessed the program.
We do agree, it appears, that promises should not be so broad. Even as a believer, I cannot guarantee that reading scripture will change a person, and I cannot guarantee how. Only the Holy Spirit can change a heart to trust Christ. Trying hard on that point will not help if there is no faith.
As to addiction, I suspect it’s as you say for people who do experience sobriety…show up, obey, God does the rest. I know that sounds a lot easier in print than it ever would be in real life. I think temptation is one thing, but temptation mixed with addiction is on a whole different level.
C/L….
Glad to hear that you see beyond the common christian platitudes.
I did not presume you were going to fire one at me. I have been on the receiving end of many of these by many Christians.
In fact, some of the most adamant Christians who over-simplify recovery to platitudes are those who were blessed enough to be instantly healed and therefore feel it is how God works in everyone’s life. I wish this were the case and don’t understand why it is not.
I believe it is pretty plain to see that God works in any number of ways and frankly…. as He chooses.
I can understand your defense of the scriptures. I try to keep in mind that God’s people have been had mixed and competing viewpoints of the meaning of the scriptures and how God works as long as man has existed.
Hey…. even while Moses was on the mountain receiving the 10 commandments…. after God had led his people miraculously out of Egypt and through the desert…. they were still so off-base that they ended up making a golden calf while God was communing with their leader Moses.
And are not many of the chapters of the New Testament simply letters of instruction and correction from Paul and the Apostles to the various Christian churches in different regions and cities?
So I am sure there are many viewpoints of the scriptures and many opportunities for error. So if you are observing something you feel is in error, perhaps you can take some solice in knowing this is nothing new.
Ciao.
Chaz
It amazes me that some here have never read CRecovery but are willing to comment on it.
CR is a system to take the place of deep meditation and study of Gods Word. Period.
I find CR repetitive sometimes too ethereal and difficult to apply to issues involving addictive behaviors. If you are involved with it, find a recovery group or individuals that you can study with that can facilitate illuminating Gods word together.
Kindly back away from the CR books and give thanks, meditate and pray seeking Gods wisdom through scripture study.
I am an addict saved through our Lord Jesus Christ. A devoted follower of Christ.
I am glad for you Chaz, that you are sober, clean, and healthy now and give God the credit…