A few things are very difficult in this time as our family looks into the shift our church. First of all, there’s the grief because ministers and people we love are buying this. Though I did have some things bother me, and I recall having a few crystal clear moments of “what the heck is going on here” I still was walking right along with this stuff. As I read through sermons now, it’s clear where our church is heading (we’ve really pretty much arrived). I was just so proud of my church and what they did for those who are in need, and for the missions aspect. I still think doing is important. I believe a church should meet the needs of others as a body, and should try to help people in poverty or who have had a disaster. This is a good thing. It’s not enough though.
I now feel a burden to either teach as many as possible what I know. I have to learn to do this appropriately, but the way I am I want to sound it from the rooftops. I have half a mind to walk about the church and drop fliers and place books in the library. I thought of taking the sermons in the library and putting post its inside with warnings. I just don’t want my people to go down in error like this. It’s so hard.
Then there’ s the realization that this is so deep in the local metro area. Oh my, with the camps and the other churches we partner with, and the church plants, and the conferences, and the local seminaries involved, this runs deep. If it’s not Rick Warren materials it’s Dallas Willard or Brian McLaren. So many people are following this without realizing it.
I am struggling with the idea of doing things somewhat differently. I have to now wonder if “small groups” are a bad thing. We’ve always been involved in Bible study groups, but these small groups the last few years have not been about the Bible but about books and DVD driven lessons with skits, and service projects, and signing a group covenant and the like. I wonder if I’ll ever be able to trust the “small group” model again.
I have learned how immature I am. I let this all slip by me. I feel terrible about that. I have been knocked down, the wind knocked out of me. I love these people, my kids love these people. They cannot all be lost, right? I mean, we are still Christians, aren’t we all? I know in whom I have believed, but who have all these others been believing in? I was talking with a friend, and she just cannot imagine certain staff being involved, but I say they are the most likely involved. The kindest, most wonderful people, and I realize now they are the ones who have fallen the hardest for Dallas Willard, and probably contemplative. Our pastors spend a great many hours reading books, going to conferences, and all the missions projects. When are they reading the Bible? I am sure they are reading, but when?
We had over 100 kids “come up” at our summer VBS type event this summer. What is going to happen to them? What kind of food will they be fed? What’s going to happen to my children if and when we decide to get out of this church?
I am a C...I am a CH...I am a CHRISTIAN 
wow…I agree…many churches are TOO much into the feel and how to entertain and capture people’s attention.
Many churches never even open the Bible.
What kind of shallow faith are we leading young Christians into?
There are some though that use elements of the emergent church to engage people. We live in a society that wants to be active learners…not a sit and get type of people.
Through it all, do not loose your faith in the one true God. Stay in the WORD. Worship Him and not the process of worship…
God’s Blessings!
Mike
I know you dont know me from Adam (what does that phrase really mean anyways?) but I agree with Mike. Don’t let the misleading of man take away from the Truth of the Word of God. I personally think small groups, DVD, and books have their place but that place is after the Scripture and they must, must, must be founded on that same Scripture.
As a pastor and book store owner, I know quite well what you are speaking of and I will be praying for you, your family and your church. If I can help in anyway, please let me know.
Prayers,
Thomas
http://www.tomhypes.com
Thomas,
What cautions do you have for a shifting church? What authors seem to be still following biblical principles? I’m struggling in that, what I see, is a shift from the bible to even mentioning extra-biblical material. It seems a case is slowly being made to prove “Paul did it” so we can too. There’s also a slow build up of comments and examples of those who are “woves” and “grumblers” in the church. Though they say to tell them when something sounds wrong, they also say not to be “bible police” and individually search it out, but to let the corporate community decide if things aren’t biblical. It’s a rather confusing message, in my opinion.
Hey,
Well, that’s some great questions. Let me see if I can break them into a couple different answers and leave it to your discernment on what weight to put to it.
First is a question of what resources are safe to use in a shifting church. I am of the opion that there is no perfect resource outside of the Bible and even then people sometimes bring thier own mix to it. That doesn’t make them impossible to use.
I will say there are resources I will not use such as Emergent resources by authors like Brain McClearen, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones and the like. There are other lines I avoid too.
There are other resources that I love to use but always must bring the Scripture to the discussion. For instance, I like using resources from Andy Stanley with small groups. However, while I love his principles, the discussions themselves are lacking Biblical study so I check it against Scripture, bring that Scripture to the group, and we study both and weigh it all together.
Another possiblity is working through something that you don’t fully agree with but can lead you back to the Scripture. For instance, we did a book study of “Velvet Elvis” by Rob Bell which has a few things in there that I find pretty questionable but we explored that in the Scripture together. We can say, how do you feel about this on page 23 and someone say, that doesn’t sound right to me. “Me either, let’s look in Galatians and see what the Bible has to say about this.” It does take a facilitator that is founded on the Word.
Another seems to be a question of how to handle your concerns within your church. I may be assuming a little here but from your response ir appears you have brought some concerns to the leadership within your church and what you typed here is some of the response you have gotten.
To me, there are some issues that Christians must agree to disagree on and still be in harmony. For instance in Romans 14, Paul speaks of those who believe eating certain meat is ok and others believe it is wrong. This is an issue that was a little grey compared to the Scripture and Paul cautioned that you must act in love and not be a stumbling block on this level. Read verse 1 – 23 on that one.
Then there seemed to be groups that would get past the honeymoon period of thier friendships, get frustrated and stop meeting together. Paul encourages us to not give up on meeting with one another in such circumstances.
“Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” Hebrews 10: 23-25
However, if there is a real assessment of the situation and there is something Biblicaly wrong going on within the church community, I don’t see anything in the Scripture, especially with Paul and Christ, that says we don’t address it. Christ gently instructed those who were open to rebuke and more blunt with those within the church who are not. Paul took Peter to task over his hyprocrisy in Galatians 2.
I don’t see anything in the Scripture that says the community gets to choose what is right and wrong. The Scripture is there for that on most thing. If it is not black and white in the word, then the community with the leadership manning up to thier responsiblity must seek in Word and prayer the leading of the Spirit.
If you are in disagreement on a theological issue within your church, it is best to pray and study yourself to see if you may be in error. If not, then take it to the proper leadership. I would pray they are open to struggling through that with you. Maybe you will lead them to the truth or they can give you a better understanding. If you still disagree, is it something that is important enough to break away from the church. If not, then stay and love through it. If so, and God leads you to do so, then you must follow the Spirit and move to a new Fellowship.
There are many issues that I would say love through. Some things not so much. You must stand on the Word. “Bible Police” sounds like a negative term which it can be when people are trying to cause strife in the community all the time. However, on the big issues, the Bible mandates we hold everything to the Word, that we follow the Word, that we hold each other to accountablity in the Word, and in some effects to be “Bible Police”.
Discernment is a must.
OK, I babbled too long. Sorry…….More than happy to keep talking whenever you wish. My prayers are with you!
“Velvet Elvis” is one book that helped send a great couple out of our church knowing the youth pastors read it, and one even sought employment with an emergent church of Bell’s ilk. I have seen some Noomas that seem like eastern meditative action to me, the breath. And then the loose interpretation of the bible really bothers me.
Dallas Willard is quite prominently recommended for reading in our church. I know he’s supposed to be contemplative focused. What’s your take?
Our pastors and elders haven’t been unkind to us, it’s just in the reading of sermons months or weeks later I’m discovering a lot of reference to wolves/scoffers/etc. Rick Warren’s plan is BIG in our church.
We’ve spoken to some elders who just don’t seem to see things as bad as it seems. Those that left already say it’s very eastern/new age/ or not biblical. We have a member of our church who was once in Pagitt’s church and says our church is like it was early on before it became emergent. This person says the changes are the same (and what I mean by emergent is into meditative prayers and mysticism). What’s your thinking on this?
Well, let’s use Velvet Elvis as an example some more concerning resources. When we went through it, one of the analogies he used was a trampoline and that are beliefs are the springs. Then he asked what if one of your springs were proven wrong and removed (his example was what if we found out that Mary was not a virgin), would you then stop believing in Christianity as whole? At first glance, you might think “Well, that’s never going to happen but if it did, I doubt it would change my mind.” Seems like a harmless hypothetical to many.
However, as we went through it, we talked about what a dangerous slope the question itself opens up. Once you are able to say one Biblical truth can be put aside without it being a big deal, it can become easier and easier to let go of the Turth of the Scripture and we saw it was a danger. Then we talked about how this is happening more and more in churches and how we can address it in our friends and hold ourselves accountable as a church not to fall victim to the thought process.
Sidebar: I don’t know if I label Rob Bell as Emergent as much as I do emerging (long story) but I once heard Tony Jones (an Emergent leader) do a talk slamming this very theory of Rob Bell’s from a total different scary view).
Anywho, that’s what I mean when I say you need a strong, Biblical based facilitator to discuss these things through or else it can lead to funkville.
The natural question then is why even study such things. Generaly, it’s good to not spend a lot of time on them. However, if people aren’t aware of the concerns and why from a Biblical viewpoint on a casual level, it can lead to some of the things you are talking about.
Sidebar: You have mentioned Rick Warren’s stuff a couple times. Give me an ounce of grace when I say I have not found anything overly evil in his stuff within the basics. The concern I have had is many people start to put his stuff over th eBible and it’s just to surfacy to be the end of the conversation. It has to go deeper into the Word or else people can skim across the water instead of diving in.
To be honest, I don’t know alot about the meditative prayers and mysticism. I wish I could help you more there but I’m not the most versed there.
Two things:
If you get bored, stop by my site at http://www.tomhypes.com and there is the start of a series of blogs on Emergent that might be of interest to you.
Also, I highly recommend (if you want a more clear picture of Emergent and the theological concerns from a full standpoint) a book called “Why We’re Not Emergent: From Two Guys Who Should Be”. It is written by two guys who show the theological dangers of the teachings of the leading Emergent leaders from a Biblical viewpoint.
Have a good night….Blessings!